Gender Forum

It's a great turnout. And I hope you came with your questions. I'm gonna give a little intro and pray, and then Anderson, who is our moderator for tonight's panel discussion, is gonna explain how we're doing this and the rules of what we're doing.

Let me explain why we're doing this. It's really important for us as a community to have an opportunity to engage. I know that there have been a number of conversations that have happened in your community groups over the last six weeks. We've been really encouraged to hear the number of conversations happening in your community groups, and the fact that it's not all been everybody agrees on everything. That's actually been a good thing.

As I said at the very beginning, the goal of this series is not that everybody has to agree on everything. I want to remind you what I said the first week we started this series: our understanding of Scripture and gender issues in Scripture are really third order theological issues.

Understanding Theological Order

First order theological issues are about Jesus and the resurrection. Did Jesus die? Was He raised from the dead? You see that represented in our vows for membership. When people join our church, they're only asked questions about first order issues: Do you believe you're a sinner and Jesus is a savior of sinners and you put your trust in Him?

Second order issues are about which almost all Christians agree. To agree on the first order is to be a Christian. The secondary issues around which most Christians agree are: the Bible is God's Word, God exists in three persons as a Trinity, and the Spirit inhabits believers at conversion.

Then there are third order issues around which there's a lot of disagreement within the church. Those have to do a lot in many cases with issues of speaking in tongues, the end times, and gender. There are lots of these kinds of issues, and you could probably list a lot of these.

That doesn't mean they're not important. A lot of those issues are actually things that really divide Christians, that people really struggle with in our culture. And I would never say, hey, it doesn't matter. Those things do matter. They're just not primary.

We always tell people, if they're coming to evaluate Christianity, you don't evaluate Christianity based on third order issues. Like, do I like the Bible's position on sexuality and gender? In fact, it doesn't really matter what the Bible says about those if the primary issue is not clear. If it's not Jesus Christ raised from the dead—if He's not raised from the dead—that's the center of Christianity. That's the main point. And if that is not true, it doesn't matter what the Bible says about any of these other issues. That's the point we push people to.

That doesn't mean it's not something that people are really interested in, and we'll talk about that later tonight. I just want to remind you of that going into this.

Why We're Having This Series

Why are we doing this series? We want to promote healthy discussion in our community around how we interpret Scripture in very important issues. We want to keep Jesus central. That's why you haven't heard sermons for the last eight years on any of these issues. These come up just now. But they are important, and we want to make sure that they have airtime.

Tonight is an opportunity for you to ask questions, and I'll let Anderson explain how we're going to do that. But before I do so, let me lead us in prayer.

Father, we thank you for our time together tonight. Lord, I pray that you would by the power of your spirit meet us. We pray, Father, as we talk through really difficult things and probably come up short in some ways. We pray, Father, for your work among us. We pray, Father, we would leave this place more confident of your love for your people, your spirit's power to be at work in your church, and our church trying to love and live out the gospel together. We pray these things in Jesus name. Amen.

Introducing the Panel

Before I turn it over to Anderson, let me introduce the panel of who's sharing tonight and why.

Mary Pat Hinders, James Sutton, Anne Fletcher, David Spickard, Susan Bradford, and myself. These folks represent three of our elders and three of our commissioned women who have served alongside our elders and who have a story to tell about how they have worked through and lived in a church that's a complementarian church. That's why they've been asked to serve on the panel tonight.

These are not experts, and they probably will all come up with answers that are "I don't know," which is totally okay. But we're gonna take turns, pass the mic, and interact together.

So, Anderson.

Hey, do y'all mind scooting back so I can see your face and not asking questions to the side of your face? That'd be awesome. So today we sent out the phone number to receive some text messages and questions prior to tonight. We've already begun to organize those in a way that hopefully will make most sense. Any repeated questions or questions that revolve around the same issue, we're going to group those together. So if we don't get to your specific question tonight, we hopefully will get to it in regards to grouping it with other questions. I apologize if we don't get to every question tonight. We will not. But this session will also be taped and sent out. If anybody that wanted to hear it would like to, that will be posted, I believe, where our sermons are located as well.

If you can keep questions as questions and not just send in statements, that would be very helpful. Also, just remembering that my prayer tonight is that the care for our congregation and for our community will be present and that we'll draw closer to Jesus through all of this.

Questions and Answers

So we've heard that this is a third tier issue for Christians, but how do you approach someone who sees this as a first tier issue? Essentially, why would a person who has nontraditional gender views and feel judged and hated by Christians ever consider a relationship with Jesus?

This is an easy one for me because I don't know where I'd be without Jesus, and that is the primary issue. When he came into my life, when he saved me, I got a tremendous sense of clarity about a lot of things in my life, not the least of which was that he's the most important. That doesn't negate that there are things that are hard about following him that are really tremendously hard. And yet he—I find that he is worth it, and that is what I would hold out to others who are wondering about whether this Christianity thing is a thing for them.

I can speak from my experience that it is worth it. These third tier issues are not without trouble or head scratching. But gosh, he's just so worth it. That's what I would say to someone who was wanting to explore whether they could connect with Christianity. My experience since 1989, when I asked him to come in, the community that I've experienced as a part of the churches I've been a part of has been life saving for me and for my children. I just would offer that.

Just to build off of that, I think it has to be authentic in the way we engage too so that people see Jesus in us. I think the last part of the question, Anderson, like why would someone want to be a part—it's so much about how we then love people, and that the authenticity of our faith comes out through the way people see our genuine love for them.

Why did we do this series as it was so divisive? What is CTK's expectation as a result of this series? How is our congregation supposed to engage with the world that views this topic very differently?

I think our hope was that this series wouldn't be divisive, but that it would be unifying. I think oftentimes our silence and our dancing around can often be more divisive than our speaking clearly and inviting dialogue. Jeff had said from the very beginning that the hope for this series would be that it would produce unity and produce dialogue.

I think our hope for the congregation would be that we would become more conversant in this topic, both with each other and with the outside world. The hope would be that this would spark discussions not just within our church and increase our own understanding about gender topics. We would be more comfortable—let's be honest, I think a lot of times we're very uncomfortable talking about these things because of the high potential for disagreement. We'd be more comfortable moving into conversation and dialogue so that we could show forth the love of Christ and we could get to the primary issue and not just engage on this.

I do think that part of the conviction too was that church is the place that we can talk about these kinds of things as opposed to those being conversations and discussions that we have out there somewhere. I think it's also just a mark of good shepherding to say these kinds of topics are things we can address in church and talk about even though they are somewhat divisive or can highlight a lot of the disagreements that we have.

I grew up in another denomination where women were pastors. I hold them in high regard. They guided me during different parts of my life. I'm not sure what to do with that advice.

And also, what do people say, what do parents say to their daughters that say they want to be pastors? I'll let you have it for now. I've got something to say about that too. No, no. Ladies first.

So I grew up in the PC USA Church and an egalitarian family and came to know the Lord in middle school through the ministry of my female pastor. So I too have a high regard for women who are in ministry. I love ministry. I personally love to minister to people. So this is a little bit more of just my personal story. I was a reluctant complementarian, and I think it's because I stood at and looked at the gender specialties really from a place of lack. Like, this is something that is a rule that I have to live under, and it felt like something was being withheld from women.

The closer that I got to the cross and the more that I understood the fuller picture of the beauty of God's design and his creation—going back to Genesis and watching that play out throughout the whole of Scripture, watching Jesus do his thing—it became beautiful to me. Jeff has used the illustration of a dance, and I think that's a helpful picture. The more I saw the beauty in these specialties that God has given to women and the specialties that God has given to men, it really pointed me to Ephesians 3, that the manifold wisdom of God is made known through his church. And how does that play out? Well, specifically with gender—these are these specialties and this dance that happens. And so it really became more of an invitation. Like, come and join me. Here's Christ inviting me: come join me in what I'm doing. I'm redeeming this world, and you can take part in it. Here's this beautiful role that I've given you.

And so I'm no longer a reluctant complementarian. I love complementarity in the church, and it's beautiful, and it points me to Jesus. And I have gotten to know Jesus more because I participate in the role of Ezra and the role of being a rest maker. So that shifting from rule that I had to just abide by and obey to this is an opportunity for me to actually know Jesus better. When I see him as the Ezra and I can participate in being that and get to know him more, or when I see him as the rest giver—it's just beautiful.

So what I would say to the daughter—such a good question. My parents have lovingly asked me the question like, have you thought about going into pastoral ministry? And so I did early on. I wrestled with that question before coming into seeing the beauty of complementarianism. And here's what I would say to my daughter if she were thinking about that.

First of all, I would celebrate that she wants to love people, right? I would celebrate that she wants to bring the Gospel to the world and shepherd people. And there is no way that being a woman in a complementarian church limits you from doing that. So I would first celebrate that. And then I would say that I would ask this of a man as well: tell me more. I want to hear more. Why? What's your motivation for doing this kind of thing? Assessing the call—and this is probably where I would hand it over to people who are ordained and do this kind of thing. But first of all, I would celebrate. Second, I would want to know why and why this particular position was so important to her. And then help her and hold out to her an invitation that this isn't something that is withheld. This is an invitation to something that's beautiful.

Yeah, I'll go real quickly. I think, kind of working backwards on that question, I too would be thrilled if Josie came to me and said she wanted to be a pastor because it would begin a conversation about her love for Christ. And there would be all kinds of uncomfortable places we might wind up going in that conversation, but man, that would be exciting. And then, kind of to the first part, I know lots of women who are in ministry who have been an enormous blessing in my life—who are ordained in ministry—and they know my views and we're still friends and God still works through them in my life. So that's all.

Headship in Marriage

Next question. Jeff spoke about headscarves and headship in his sermon this past week. He mostly talked about headship in terms of church leadership. How does headship factor into marriage?

I'll take a stab at this. I think that one of the things I heard more in this sermon that I hadn't really thought about was the submission role for the wife in marriage is not something that's demanded, but it's something that's offered. And I think that makes a really big difference.

I think we misunderstand that and get it wrong when we think of the husband demanding submission or controlling her and telling her what to do, and she simply complies. I think submission and headship in marriage is not passive for the wife. I really believe that one of my roles as an ezer in marriage is to open my mouth and speak up, and that means gathering strength, courage, or what have you to say what I think is right and what is true.

So with headship and submission, because I'm in that submissive role, that doesn't mean I don't have a contribution to the marriage. And the fact that I'm made in God's image—I get to share that with Jeff in the marriage and how that functions.

Another thing that I would add: I don't know that you talked about this in the sermon, but I think that both the role of headship and submission look to Jesus to get their strength and for what that looks like, which I think is really helpful. I think of Jesus as both this lowly man of sorrows who knows what it's like to struggle through life, and yet he's also glorified in submitting himself. So there's that both/and to him. Both the wife and the husband look to Jesus to fulfill their role in marriage.

One of the things that Jeff and I love to share with couples when we do premarital counseling is that the role to lead—which is primarily the husband—is to love and lead her like Christ loves and leads the church. We hold that out for couples. So if Christ loves the church well, he's going to love her and lead her well. He's not going to micromanage her or bully her or coerce her. I think as the church, that's not how Jesus leads and loves his church, and so the husband in marriage can do likewise.

If there is a disagreement, if we don't know the direction, he needs to know the ins and outs of what she feels and thinks, and that's good stewardship of that headship role.

On the male side of the headship question—and I think of this in terms of the church and in marriage and being husband and father—it's not a call to power and prestige. It's a call to sacrifice. It's honestly a call to die. It's a call to die to self. And when we say, "Love your wives, because Christ loved the church," what did Christ do for the church? He died for the church. So it's a really high calling that men have to take responsibility for. It's not something we would want to sign up for, honestly, because it really is about sacrifice and dying to self and giving up power rather than leading with power.

Unfortunately, that's not the way many of us see it, and many of our dads probably thought it was about lording over people. But even as I think about it as being an elder, coming and being an elder at the church is not for power and prestige. That's why we think and pray hard and ask our wives and our families whether we are up to the task of taking on that role and responsibility, because our call as elders is to care for your souls. That's really what it's about, and that means we have to go low instead of high.

The world may see this as men being in places of control and domination, but just like the kingdom of God is always the opposite, right?

The first is last, the last shall be first.

It's the same way. Leadership is about going low and sacrifice.

Gender Roles Beyond Marriage

I have two questions with this next one. First, we talk a lot about gender in terms of marriage, but it isn't the end all, be all. What do gender roles look like outside of marriage, and how do we be those people outside of marriage or before marriage as men and women, specifically for college-age men and women?

And then, another question that was asked: since gender is for relationship in a masculine, feminine way, if I'm single, how do gender roles apply to me in the context of the church? As the token single person, I have been married, but my marriage was not one that was steeped in Christianity, so there's no example there. But in these years of singleness, I have found it a privilege to be cared for and shepherded by the pastors at the churches I've been a part of.

Outside of church, because I'm not married and no holds on me—the two roles are in church, I submit, and in marriage, I submit. I'm not in marriage, so I'm all about it. But if God should bring someone my way at this late hour, it will take some work and some learning and relearning to make that work.

After being single for a while, I can't remember back to my college age—someone else will have to speak to that—but for those of us who have been single for a while, I'm very independent. I don't want anybody telling me about whether I can buy those shoes or not. I'm sensitive to that, and it's part of the equation as I think about what God has for me.

But in the context of the church, in so many ways, I have felt so well cared for and shepherded by the male leadership of the church. As a single person, that's a beautiful thing for me. And because I am single, I like to talk to the guys, so that's a helpful thing for me.

I would say that in broader society we don't exercise our gender roles regularly, and there's a lot of reasons for that. C.S. Lewis talked about how it's really important that voting and political life and business life is genderless in a lot of ways because people are sinful and we will exploit one another and will hurt one another. It's only safe within covenant for us to exercise our gender specialties.

That doesn't mean it's just a call for marriage. The gender specialties that we highlighted in this series—being the securer, being the rest giver, being the firstborn and the promoter, being the initiator and the helper—are things that we also can work out in our relationships within this body.

You do that within the context of your relationships in your community groups, which is one of the primary ways we do that. For men, that means creating space where you're making sure that the women in your community group have their voices heard and prized. That means women are pushing men in their relationships to step into courage and not passivity, challenging them like, "Hey, God's calling on you." That means creating opportunities for rest giving, for reflection, for asking good questions that cause leaders in your church, leaders in your community group, men that you know to take a step back and really think about where the Lord is in this.

I think that we have an opportunity to try those things out in faltering ways within the body of Christ. And that's not just for married people. That's for married people and single people. And that doesn't mean that those are always appropriate or always safe. You have to use discernment in your relationships.

We would never say that submission is demanded. As Susan highlighted, submission is a promotion, is a gift that women have the right to give. It's never demanded, and so that should never be demanded within the context of our relationships within the church either. Not every woman submits to every man. That's not what's in view in this.

And yet we have this opportunity to lean into gender roles within our specialties within our community together and try those on. We're going to do those in faltering ways. We're not going to get them right. We're going to fail and hurt each other's feelings. But that's one of the reasons God's given us the body of Christ—this is a safe place where we learn to love each other and hopefully we do so in ways that teach us how to love others as well.

I think that we all have room to grow in those things about how we learn to become more and more the people that God's made us to be. Everybody has to learn that. And for everybody, that's an uphill battle of learning those things.

Welcoming LGBTQ+ Individuals

How does the Christian relate to a person that is transitioning, being involved with the LGBTQ+ community, and what pronouns should we use? That is Sunday's sermon. So you get to come back on Sunday and hear the answer to that.

Real brief, though, I encourage people to use the pronouns that other people identify themselves by always because we are trying to build bridges, not walls. And it is our calling to love and to represent Christ.

So what if a transgender, openly gay, nonbinary individual or committed married, openly gay couple wants to come and worship at CTK? I think that we want anyone who wants to come to come on Sunday morning, and we would welcome them into our worship service. That would be an entry point, a beginning point for relationship and dialogue and there'd be a lot to talk about, but our worship services are open.

So the second part of this question: what if they want to become a member? What are the next steps for leadership as well as the members of CTK? What is the endgame of our church for same-sex couples within the church? Well, I'd say the endgame for everyone in our church is really to grow closer to Christ.

As far as membership is concerned, if a same-sex couple approached us and wanted to join the church, the first thing that I would say is, wow. We have people who've been coming to our church for years that we can't get to join the church. But the fact that they would want to join our church—that's an incredible starting place for conversation.

There would be challenges to them joining our church simply because one of the vows of membership that you take is a vow of submitting to the government and discipline of the church. Our discipline is spiritual in nature. Essentially, our discipline is our leadership making a ruling on whether or not we think someone is following Christ and following scripture. So we would have to talk about how we would believe if they're in an openly homosexual relationship that they're not following scripture. And membership would mean that they would immediately be brought under discipline. That would be a challenging thing.

We would have to have those conversations, and those would probably take place over a long period of time. We have the same conversations with heterosexual people who are wanting to join our church who are in openly active relationships. There's no difference between us. When someone wants to join our church, we ask them to take a look at their heart and life and ask themselves whether or not they're following after Christ. If they're not, we encourage them towards that. It can be a slow process or a quick process, but we point them to the biblical passages that we think they need to understand, and then we walk alongside of them with that.

But the endgame is always a closer walk with Christ. That would be our hope. What would be exciting about that conversation is that if they're coming to us wanting to join our church, it would mean they would be open to that. That would be exciting.

Children and Intersex Inclusion

So what would you tell a couple that has an intersex child about how their child will be received at CTK? We would love to have them, and my guess is statistically we probably do have an intersex child or more at our church. We have worked really hard. Stephanie's provided a really terrific community that I feel like has worked very hard to meet families where they are and provide support to families. That's been a significant part of her unique gifting that she brings to this role.

We would really want a child who has an intersex background or has started surgery or is in the process of that. We want our church to be a safe place for that child and would work in any way we can to make that possible.

Women's Gifts and Leadership

How is CTK proactively using the gifts of women? And then for the women on the panel, what is hard and what is good about working as a woman at a complementarian church?

We really love, and I'll say this: we are actively seeking to promote the gifts of women. I'm not sure we're great at it. I think we have room for growth in that area, and probably a lot of you could give a lot of input on that. It is something that's very close to our hearts as leadership, as the elders in our church—how can we promote and use the gifts of all of our members in our congregation? Where are we creating room for women to lead and serve and use their gifts within ministries across a variety of spectrum?

That's why I gave the explanation Sunday about the non-ordained man principle. We're not just saying, "Here's what permission looks like." We would like pursuit to be what marks our church. I think we have a lot of room to grow in that. But our goal is for women to be in positions that have teaching and equipping our leadership. We've had guest speakers come in and lead, equipping our community group leaders and elder community. We've had women of leadership within our worship teams and want more of that. We use women's examples on Sunday mornings, in community groups, and in discipleship at a variety of levels.

I'd just say that we have female community group leaders, both married and single. I'd say Jeff's right that we have a lot of room to grow.

Our denomination has a lot of room to grow and they recognize that. They did a study committee on this topic a year or two ago, and we're trying to take steps along with the rest of the denomination in that way. I'd say we took a huge leap forward when we added the commissioned women role at our church because that provided a very valuable platform for feminine voices to be heard and for their input to be put into practice.

I feel as a woman at CTK, I feel supported. I think that the main relationship where I feel valued and supported is this one. Jeff pulls me into ministry situations all the time and has even before I was commissioned. I would love to see more of that, and I don't know if that's because of me and my role and the fact that I'm married to Jeff, but I would love to see other male leadership pulling me into ministry situations. The commissioned coming alongside elders has been really great. I get to sit around the table and open my mouth and speak into situations, and I get to come alongside predominantly women, which makes sense. But I like the word collaboration. I would like to see more of a vision for collaboration for men and women working together in ways that may not seem obvious, for other male leaders—that's really elders—to pull me into situations. I'm very happy here. Across the board, I feel loved and supported.

I know that for many women, they have been in complementarian churches which were not characterized by men in servant leadership loving the women, and women have been hurt. So it can be a hard thing for some women coming into a church where they look at the leadership and, when you've been hurt by somebody who was male and you have males who are your authorities, you bring a narrative. You bring those fears. You bring those concerns with you. I have felt very encouraged here in our local body and have opportunities to use the gifts that God has given me.

I would like to echo everything that's been said, but I would love to see more opportunities for women. Some of that is really on us as women to take this. We've been given this—go, run, disciple people, Titus 2 ministry—and it's really in some ways that we're supported and we're invited to, and these men, these elders are ready to encourage and support. Okay, let's do this thing. Let's teach one another. Let's disciple one another. Let's take part in ministry together as women. I feel encouraged. I think we as women also need to grow and take the invitation and run with it.

I came from a large PCA church before here, and we had what we called a board of women. It was commissioned about 12 women—again, a big church—and there was a woman assigned to every elder committee and every diaconal committee. They were not voting members, but they sat in on the meetings and gave their feedback, had discussion, and were able to bring things to the table that perhaps the guys around the table didn't know or hadn't heard. Coming here, I was like, "Man, where is that here?" What I had to adjust to is it's a smaller church, and having had the really tremendous and humbling privilege of sitting in on the shepherding meetings, it's amazing what the very small number of men who are leading this church get accomplished. It's tremendous.

When I think about committee structures and reporting organizations, I think that's a leap ahead that this body isn't maybe quite ready for, but I hope that someday it will be, because we found it tremendously helpful—the deacons and the elders—to have a woman sit in when they were doing the budget. It was a really helpful experience. I have great hopes because of my experience here and the tremendous invitation that I have experienced to be engaged. I have hopes that it will just continue.

Why does CTK give elders and leaders the authority to speak about homosexuality and gender dysphoria when it seems as though they haven't struggled with it themselves?

Why does CTK give people of authority the authority to speak about homosexuality and gender dysphoria when it seems as though they haven't struggled with it themselves?

That's a great question. That's a really hard question as a pastor because one of the callings that we have regularly with regard to God's Word is to open God's Word and to proclaim what's written in there and to help a congregation walk in that in areas where we may not struggle or we may not identify. And yet we're tasked with preaching the whole council of God. If we did, it'd be hard for me to imagine how we could do that well.

But I understand there's a real need, a real longing for authenticity in the voices that are leading the congregation on issues—particularly that are really challenging like this one. And that's why, man, I entered into this series with a lot of fear and trembling because I know this hasn't been a particular struggle of mine.

We're about to do a series after this on the seven deadly sins and I'm going to preach on some of them that I don't struggle with. And that may feel like, oh, that's a cheap example. But actually, that's a kind of regular thing where I have to stand up and open God's Word and talk about things that God says because my role, our pastors' roles, James' role is not to only speak upon things upon which we're the authority but to allow God's Word, which is the authority for our church, to speak. And that's a really hard dance. It's a very fair question. And I understand why that question's asked.

And so that's one of the reasons I said at the very beginning of the series, I may screw this up and probably have in some areas. And yet I think it's an important conversation for us as a community to have. If I don't know who the question asker is, but if there are things that you felt like were unjust in the way we've talked about these issues, we want to hear from you. We're doing this panel this way so that people aren't embarrassed asking questions. But we want feedback too. This isn't just like, hey, listen to us and go home. This is an attempt to create a dialogue in a safe way, but we want also the honest feedback. I feel some feedback behind that question and I just want to acknowledge that. You are asking some really good questions.

Loving Family Members Through Transition

How do we love family members that are transitioning and communicate with family members that are encouraging that family member to transition?

I think love and truth. And those two things always go together in the Christian world. Unfortunately, we live in a culture right now—and the Christian church does this too—where we pull the grenade on the truth bomb and we lob it over the fence and we let it blow up. There's also a lot of the Christian community that loves love and never opens our mouths because we're so afraid.

If you're in authentic relationships with people that you deeply care about and they see how you care, then your love for them has to be marked by both. So I would really encourage people: You don't have to always feel like you've got to be the type of person who's going to open your mouth and say stuff and lob the truth bomb—you probably need to lean on the love side of the fence. If you're the type of person who's never going to open your mouth, you need to start. You've been equipped now. You need to start learning to speak up and say, "Are you sure that this is what's best? Are you sure that the things you're doing, moving toward transitioning chemically or surgically in particular, are irreversible in their effects?" And just be really caring about asking all those questions.

People know. I heard a really wonderful exchange between Rosaria Butterfield, whom we've mentioned before, who is one of the most visible speakers in the country with regard to conversations about homosexuality because she came out of a lesbian lifestyle and became a Christian and is now married to a man and is a pastor's wife in Durham. But her interaction with a woman who was protesting her event and leading a protest against her, and she was in the process of transitioning. And I loved how Rosaria dealt with her by just asking questions: "Wow, that's a big surgery. Are you scared? Who's going to walk with you through that? How are you paying for all this? What do you need?"

These kinds of questions led to the kind of conversation that allowed her to be able to speak truth. They didn't agree on everything, but it opened up a door where this woman's crying and confiding in her. This is really scary.

And ended up driving her to the airport afterward because she's like, "I wish you were my mom." Really powerful encounter of asking questions that are about love and truth together.

Yeah, that's something I really struggle with. I have a family relative who's been in a same-sex relationship for a long time and then lives in a state where it became legal for her and her partner to become married. They ended up getting married and I just didn't know what the line of love is. Where do you draw the line of love? Do I go to the wedding? They live too far away for me to attend, but do I go? If I don't go and my judge says I'm not loving them, but if I do go, am I condoning something that I don't feel is a part of my conviction? They ended up also deciding to have a child. So they got pregnant and when the baby arrives, do you send a card? Is that any different? Those are questions I'm saying I don't have any answers to. I'll be listening on Sunday. If you have any answers to that, Jeff.

But I don't think there's necessarily a formula. There's not this or that. It's because of asking questions, because of the relationship. My hope is that if I felt like the decision on my part was not to go to the wedding, that I would have such a relationship with my relative that they would know me and trust me and trust that I love them and care for them so much and that they know where I am. That my relationship wouldn't be affected in any way if I decided out of my conviction that I would not go. That means I need to learn how to build that kind of relationship of love and trust even when I feel like I have to make a decision that is centered on a conviction like that.

Addressing Same-Sex Attraction and Celibacy

Next question: If you're born with same-sex sexual struggles or urges and want to follow Jesus, is it God's will for that person to deny their sexual desires for their entire life? That seems like a raw deal to not be able to act on one of the most profound and fundamental experiences in being human. How would you address that?

It's hard. I'm the token single person. It's hard. It's really hard. When I talked about it earlier, there's stuff that's hard. And yet, as Anne described the beauty of Jesus in all of scripture, I can't deny that he's called me to celibacy. My heart goes out to those who have same-sex attraction. My heart goes out to them, period. I'm called to be celibate and it's hard, and it does not seem fair in the way the world looks at it. And yet, I believe that he has called me to a path that is the best for me. That's what I would encourage someone I was in relationship with. You gotta have relationship. Someone I was in relationship with who had same-sex attraction and I believe I'm called to celibacy, and they are too. It's hard. With complete compassion, because we're really more alike than we are different.

I think about Jesus, and he was the picture of the most fully human human there ever was. And he was not in a sexual relationship. So full human flourishing is offered to us in him wherever we are in our sexuality, wherever we are attracted. I love this—the title of the sermon by Thomas Chalmers: "The Explosive Power of New Affections." That's been really sticky for me. I don't struggle with same-sex attraction but I struggle in other ways with sin. That's what I would want to walk alongside my friend who has same-sex attraction and say, let's go look at Jesus together. You struggle here, I struggle here, and let's look at him and let the beauty of him and what he offers to us be an expulsive power so that whatever we feel like would be a loss, we would actually say is loss for knowing Christ.

Whatever I counted as gain, it's loss for knowing Christ. — Philippians

Encouraging Men in Leadership

This goes back to a question earlier. I forgot that question, but I want to ask it anyway. It says: What about reluctant men? How do you encourage men in your life to be responsible, self-sacrificing servant leaders? Can both women and men speak to this or speak into that person's life? Maybe if it's a son or husband—how do we go about doing that?

I think about our boys, and I think that looks a lot of different ways in terms of what it means to be responsible and take on that role of accountability being first born. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's all about what Jeff has been saying about what it means to be a man. There's a lot of what our culture says is what it means to be a man that has nothing to do with accountability and responsibility and the role that we end up taking on.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the man is always initiating. I think there is a level of—how are we in our role, really—like I mentioned earlier, dying to ourself and ultimately helping those around us to thrive, to uplift the gifts of our wives, our kids, those around us who we care about. And that can happen in a lot of different ways.

So I would encourage all of us men: be who you are. God designed you uniquely, perfectly in the way that you're gifted. I think we often fumble a lot because we feel like we have to operate outside of the way that we're gifted because we have to fit a certain role or what it looks like to be a man. But that firstborn, that accountability—I think even when you think of Jacob and Esau, right? Esau was the man's man and Jacob was the servant. And Esau just said, "Oh, you can have my birthright. I don't want to be firstborn. You can have it, Jacob." And here's this guy who seemed to not be the strong man being the one who's taking on that responsibility.

Teaching Servant Leadership

Time for one more. Question eight: "A woman? Go ahead. How do you teach servant leadership? What about reluctant men? How do you encourage men in your life to be responsible, self-sacrificing servant leaders? And maybe in the context of family and the church, can women speak into that man's life?"

I can only really speak to the context of being a mother to sons. I don't know that I've ever spoken into another man's life in that way. But I was thinking about what was said earlier—having six sons, there's quite a diversity in that group. So I was thinking about how I've called them to servant leadership.

One of the things that's been interesting—one of the sermons made me think about all of them and how they all have this ability to want to be in charge of me. It was a part of the sermon that was making me reflect on that. But even recognizing, you know what? I see that you have all this potential, but right now, you have to submit to what I'm telling you to do.

I think with a variety of personalities, and some are just naturally more take-charge than others, calling them to take responsibility means calling them away from their tendency to want to blame, be defensive, make excuses. I mean, those are just some of the typical responses. Calling them to owning stuff. But we've talked a lot about Jesus tonight—taking them to the cross. It's not because they've got to be tough and have it all together and never drop a ball. But where did they get that courage or that strength to say, "You know what, mom, you're right. I'm sorry"?

I've heard it so many times. It's one of the more humbling moments—when this child that you're so frustrated with, and then they're like, "You're right, mom," and they own it. I think that's some of that servant leadership that you want to groom in your sons.

I'm not sure exactly what that looks like to call other men to that when you don't have authority over them. I'd say in the context of marriage, if you are the wife of a man who you feel like needs encouragement to live out the gender specialties—this is your opportunity to shine as an encourager, as a prayer warrior, as somebody who sets the stage creatively and lovingly to really usher in the opportunities for your husband to exhibit what God has called him to in the diverse ways that might look.

But I would just encourage you: I think these are really great conversations to have in marriage. I think we should be talking about these aspects of gender roles in marriage. And I think a really helpful question is, "How can I pray for you?"

At the end of the day, we're called to know and love each other. Getting at that question—how can I pray for you?—when I ask my husband, "How can I pray for you?" it gives me such insight into where he's struggling, how I can be a rest giver and an ezer to him. So practically, that's what I would offer to my husband.

When Roles Go Wrong

Alright, last one: "What about when it goes wrong or you've experienced the roles in a painful way? What should you do when you interact with someone of the other gender in the covenant of family or of church who isn't fulfilling the roles the Lord has given to us? What about when it is abused in specific relationships and in the broader context of the church?"

There's a great article that Susan pointed me to today on the Gospel Coalition website about how you address abuses or failures within church leadership. I would encourage you to read it, especially in the wake of this moment right now where there's a lot that's just come out about abuses within the Southern Baptist denomination. I'm not pointing fingers at them particularly—that's just the news story. But there are right and proper ways to address these things.

One of the reasons that I love being a part of the Presbyterian Church is that I'm accountable. I have to promise to submit to my brethren and my brothers and the Lord as an elder. I can always be outvoted, and I think that's really important.

There are abuses of power and authority that I want to acknowledge are very real and very destructive, and probably have deeply affected some of you in this room. There are proper channels for dealing with those. It is always right to speak about things that you see or hear that don't sit right with you. If there are ways that you feel like you've been run over, those things need to be addressed in direct ways, and I want to encourage you to do so. This is a community that wants to hear that.

I also think that we really need to obey Matthew 18 with one another:

If your brother or sister has sinned against you, go and show them their fault. If they won't listen, if there's not some movement toward one another, you bring an unbiased third party into that. And if that doesn't work, you bring in a leader.

I think that's really important to underscore within our context. We are going to get these things wrong. We are a church full of sinners. They may not be intentional, but it's really important that those vows about seeking the peace of the body mean something in our interpersonal relationships—that we exercise those and we talk and we confront and ask forgiveness. If you need help knowing how to do that, we did a whole sermon series on this about a year and a half ago, which you can still go back and listen to. We can give you notes, but that's a really important dynamic to our church life.

I'll just add quickly for those who have been harmed: God looks on those who are oppressed in the kindest of ways and offers grace upon grace. There are many who have experienced less than ideal circumstances. We see what's upheld to us in scripture as the ideal marriage, the ideal love one another context of the church. But for those who have been harmed, I would encourage you—and it's encouraging to my own heart—we have a Savior who knows oppression, and He is near to the brokenhearted. As I watch Him move towards those who have lived in the midst of suffering and hardship at the hands of others, He has much to offer us.

Prayer Time

We're going to now make it your part. We're at the end of our Q and A time. If you have other questions, you're free to email those in to any of the folks up here. But I do want to encourage you right now. We're going to take ten minutes, and I want to ask you to turn in your seats where you are and pray. Ask God to help you pray for our church and pray for our church with regard to how we live out gender as a community with love and truth.

If you don't feel comfortable praying out loud, that's okay. God can hear your silent prayers. But we encourage you. This is going to get loud, and that's okay. If you would turn to the two or three people around you and just take ten minutes to pray for us as a community—for how we disagree agreeably, how we love each other, how we exercise gender within our community, how we love our neighbors, especially those of the transgender community. If you would take ten minutes and go do that, and then I'll close us in prayer in a few minutes.

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Lord, all the things that we've said tonight, all the interactions—I pray, Father, I know that there are questions that did not get answered. I pray, Father, that you would meet us individually where we need you. Lord, we pray, Father, for these things in Jesus' name. Amen.

When I encourage you: if you have further questions, if there are things that you didn't get to ask tonight or didn't make it—we had a lot more questions—please feel free to send those in to one of the leaders of our church, and they would be happy to interact on those. I want to thank you for coming and for being here this evening and for your prayers in particular at the end. Go in peace.